Islam on Marriage and Sex: Troubling Stuff
- Thread starter baqqrih
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@Xiuhcoyotl Let's go find some Black Queens together
@Oot I once again thank you for that source on 65:4. It explained things well, how that phrase can be misunderstood without the context of the Arabic language. One more thing to bug you about, however. Unrelated to 65:4, I'm still confused on the wording in the IslamQA article that shook me up regarding the child marriage thing, which ends by specifically using a statement that, from all of my translations of it, from Google to Yandex to DeepL, specifically uses the parameter of "if she can bear it" or "if she can tolerate it" or other such similar terms. Isolating the word in question, it is "تطيق" or "tutiq", which, from all of my translations of it individually, seems to have the definite meaning of a mental/social tolerance to something, rather than physical fitness for something. This makes it therefore sound like they are condoning intercourse with a child spouse as long as the child spouse can tolerate it. Am I interpreting this statement that they are saying in that article correctly? I know you're not fluent in Arabic, of course, but I think you could still help me comprehend this meaning better.
Stephen
Well-known memb-ACK!!!!!!
I have a feeling about Islam, I don’t know how it is backed up by the Quran, but it seems that Islam bends towards overturning secular/non islamic law on age of consent and child marriage, while in Christianity they don't advocate for breaking or overthrowing the secular law in those regards. I don't hear about the Pope, or eastern Patriarchs, or any fringe sect advocating for an overthrow of secular society the way Islamic sects do. Christians seem to bend to the law in that regard, and they certainly don't support sex with pre-pubescent girls.
Hello xir, I will now look at the DeepL translation
I looked at the DeepL translation and for "تطيق ." I'm unable to comment on that part specifically since I do not know Arabic. Looking it up, I found nothing online about "tutiq". The Islamic opinion has always been both mental and physical. I can't help you comprehend the meaning better, but I can ask an Arab friend if you'd like me to.
I don't understand what you've typed out here at all. No Muslim today in this modern age goes to some country and fights for lowering the age of consent, there are hardly even people advocating for Total Sharia in secular countries, geg. The only countries where you'd find people would be fighting for the overthrow of secular society in are in Muslim countries that have been westernized and even then, their numbers are probably small. Most folk today really don't give a fuck about their countries, nationalism has died with the birth of globalism and the spread of imperialism.
Yeah, if you still want help on this matter or any other, I can reach out to more educated people that I am in contact with if I can't help you out on my ownIt's alright, I'll just do more reading from English sources tomorrow on marriage in Islam, since I'm sure there are more things to read than just that page that would clearly define the actual opinion of it to me, instead of my quick conclusions. Still, thank you, Oot.![[wholesome]](/data/assets/smilies/wholesomeheart1.gif "Wholesome [wholesome]")
Coalyma (Big fat crybaby)
Queen of /qa/
Islam won
I've done some more reading on Islamic child marriage this morning. Finding actual, credible English sources was somewhat difficult because for some reason so many of the English-speaking Muslims who I found just said things like "yeah well a lot of other non-Muslims also did it in that time so erm... not really our problem" as if that makes marrying oneself to pre-pubescent children any better in any time, because the original ancient Hebrew text of the Book of Genesis in of itself specifically uses, when describing God's intention for marriage, the words (perhaps my transliteration will be poor) "ish" for man and "ishshah" for woman. Ishshah is distinct from "almah", which translates to mean a young girl with virginity, so this makes me less confident that Islam is still right in marriage, because Genesis uses terms specifically referring to adulthood, instead of any mention of God's intention for marrying children, for, if that were the case, a word like "neqebah", simply meaning female, rather a female adult or female child, would have been used instead to justify marrying pre-pubescent children in equivalence to post-pubescent girls. When I didn't find that excuse of "others did it too", however, I did actually find the same reasoning of logical thought that I've heard here, that both physical and mental fitness for sexual intercourse must be considered, so that clears up the presumption of endorsing sex with children, which is good, but I am still dissatisfied with the purpose, then, of marrying pre-pubescent children in the first place. I stated earlier that God described the intent of marriage with words in Genesis that clearly define man and woman as adult man and adult woman, so I still don't understand why a pre-pubescent child would ever be considered as a candidate for marriage, as there is clearly still an endorsement by Islam for marrying off young girls to adult men. I have no idea what the purpose of this is, as we, humans, being creatures tempted by the sins of the flesh, have the solution of marriage given to us by God to make those temptations into blessings from romance; to have children and put our bodies to a use of flesh that does not corrupt them with adultery. To, then, have a pre-pubescent child as one's spouse is illogical to me, as there is not only no functioning womb in a child, of course, but the child can not be expected to have mental acuity proficient to even comprehend romantic love at such an age, as marriage is clearly intended for romantic love with one that you mean to spend the rest of your life with. That also brings up yet another concern, as, if marriage is intended as a life-long bond between man and woman, and a forty-year-old has an eight-year-old married off to him, that eight-year-old is obviously going to outlive him, so there is a clear expectation that widowhood for the child spouse is imminent at a far-younger age than it would be for an adult woman whose husband dies while they are both elderly. So, that leaves the question, what is even the point of this practice, with all of the facets that negatively impact the marriage, even if we exclude the risk of sexual abuse among what we can best hope is a tiny minority of these couples?
It's not pedo lust, Muhammad's marriage with Aisha for example was a political marriage that historically strengthened the bond between him and Abu Bakr. There's no point in modern day Child marriage, we have moved beyond that.
That's where you're wrong. As a Catholic, I advocate for fascism as a means to restore traditionalist pre-enlightenment standards.
Stephen
Well-known memb-ACK!!!!!!
Okay but what would be the age of consent in this theoretical fascism(mods it’s purely theoretical dont ban him)
There is no age of consent. Instead, you have the half-your-age-plus-7-years age gap rule. This applies for all ages; if the resulting age is older than you, then you cannot have sex. If you are found to engage in sexual activity when you or the other party is too young/old, both parties and the resulting offspring will be executed. Every decade, we will increase the +7 years by one year, so that way, humans will start to reproduce later in life, making us live longer.
Jesus, dude. I mean, literally, Jesus. I don't think an ideal government should just start killing babies willy-nilly to discourage behavior, even if that behavior is horrific pedophilia, and the Christ, Jesus, certainly doesn't think that either.
Xiuhcoyotl
I've become the reciter, all nighter, all righter
this guy is deranged
Sometimes, you have to bend the rules to do what's right.
Xiuhcoyotl
I've become the reciter, all nighter, all righter
God's law is LAW, you cannot bend the word of God to justify your cruelty.
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