Discussion persecution

Nihilma

Nihilma

/caca/borean
@Aedra

North Korea

What does persecution look like in North Korea? Being discovered to be a Christian in North...
www.opendoors.org www.opendoors.org
www.businessinsider.com

Christians caught with a Bible in North Korea have faced death and had their families, including children, thrown in prison for life, a new report says

A Korean Worker's Party member caught with a Bible was hauled off to an airfield and killed in front of an audience of thousands, the report said.
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com

Because the state has one official state controlled orthodox church and three times more protestant churched doesn't mean the church is free there.
If you can get executed for having a bible, ad just having a bible, not being a "US allied spy", just having a bible, the Church is not free.
And this is no matter the denomination.

Instead of calling to imperialism and the west and muh political background, why not give proof that every christian who was executed for owning a Bible was a spy ?
Inb4
>Didn't read it
 
Nihilma said:
Yeah persecution of christians is one of the few things I accept to be obsessed about. duh
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Orthodox aren't persecuted. Showing me westoid propaganda isn't proof of anything (except prots and catholics getting persecuted, which is indeed happening). I have my own sources and do know what I'm talking about. Russia maintains good relations with DPRK and there are around 50-60 Orthodox believers in NK. That's quite a small amount and that's normal because there's only one Orthodox church and it was built by the nk government and then was given over to the Moscow Patriarchate. So as I said, parroting the same points doesn't mean anything.
 
Aedra said:
Orthodox aren't persecuted. Showing me westoid propaganda isn't proof of anything (except prots and catholics getting persecuted, which is indeed happening). I have my own sources and do know what I'm talking about. Russia maintains good relations with DPRK and there are around 50-60 Orthodox believers in NK. That's quite a small amount and that's normal because there's only one Orthodox church and it was built by the nk government and then was given over to the Moscow Patriarchate. So as I said, parroting the same points doesn't mean anything.
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The small number of orthodox believers in NK you mention are the official numbers, those that are accepted and registered under the state. Though I must say from my research it seems like the orthodox church never had a foothold in NK to begin with.

Again, the execution for possession of bibles is not "propaganda", the first source I cite, "open doors" is a non profit organization not located in the USA. Calling a christian organization like that "westoid propaganda" is putting politics in a place they shouldn't be.

And what you're saying is the point I raised in the previous thread. You said you put politics after faith, but it seems to me that because NK has good relations to russia, suddenly the west/east divide enters in your calculus and you refuse to see what's blatantly persecussion of the christian faith in a country.
I'm not even pro-west, I like russia, but from there to defending North Korea in it's actions against christians, it's beyond absurd.

Honestly I'd be happy of suddenly russian orthodoxy became legal in the country to all inhabitants and people could suddenly worship God like this.
But as it stands the country is still #1 in persecution, right before somalia and libya
 
Nihilma said:
The small number of orthodox believers in NK you mention are the official numbers, those that are accepted and registered under the state. Though I must say from my research it seems like the orthodox church never had a foothold in NK to begin with.

Again, the execution for possession of bibles is not "propaganda", the first source I cite, "open doors" is a non profit organization not located in the USA. Calling a christian organization like that "westoid propaganda" is putting politics in a place they shouldn't be.

And what you're saying is the point I raised in the previous thread. You said you put politics after faith, but it seems to me that because NK has good relations to russia, suddenly the west/east divide enters in your calculus and you refuse to see what's blatantly persecussion of the christian faith in a country.
I'm not even pro-west, I like russia, but from there to defending North Korea in it's actions against christians, it's beyond absurd.

Honestly I'd be happy of suddenly russian orthodoxy became legal in the country to all inhabitants and people could suddenly worship God like this.
But as it stands the country is still #1 in persecution, right before somalia and libya
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Doesn't change the fact that Orthodox aren't persecuted in NK. As for the other denominations, I have a hard time caring about them for obvious reasons. Some within the Orthodox Church would say that the Christians of the west are no longer Christians, but some other religion entirely. I haven't went that far yet in my view of them, but I am tempted to based on all the history of Catholics sacking constantinople and attacking Holy Rus at every step of the way, and what is happening to Orthodoxy in Ukraine today. Ukrainian government has persecuted more Orthodox Christians than North Korea ever will. So don't try to act all morally superior to me.
 
Aedra said:
Doesn't change the fact that Orthodox aren't persecuted in NK. As for the other denominations, I have a hard time caring about them for obvious reasons. Some within the Orthodox Church would say that the Christians of the west are no longer Christians, but some other religion entirely. I haven't went that far yet in my view of them, but I am tempted to based on all the history of Catholics sacking constantinople and attacking Holy Rus at every step of the way, and what is happening to Orthodoxy in Ukraine today. Ukrainian government has persecuted more Orthodox Christians than North Korea ever will. So don't try to act all morally superior to me.
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>Ukraine has persecuted orthodox christians more than NK
You know what's fallacious in that statement. Based on your own data it makes sense, even if suddenly NK killed all orthodox christians in it's country, it still would be less than the number of orthodox killed for their faith in Ukraine.

Anyway, just to close this because we're probably going nowhere with this, Open Doors has been created by brother Andrew van der Bijl. You probably don't know him but he was famous during the post WWII era for smuggling bibles in the communist world. In 1988, using the funds he received from donations, he sent 1 million bibles through the glasnot system to the orthodox church in russia. His life is fascinating, a lot of miracles happened in his life.

So this organization isn't some crazy american anti-orthodox propaganda tool. Stop using this accusation for everything please.
 
Nihilma said:
>Ukraine has persecuted orthodox christians more than NK
You know what's fallacious in that statement. Based on your own data it makes sense, even if suddenly NK killed all orthodox christians in it's country, it still would be less than the number of orthodox killed for their faith in Ukraine.
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If you are making a statement like this then it means you don't understand the scale of what my kind are going through in Ukraine. Even if we assumed there were thousands of Orthodox in NK and they hunted them all down, (which they aren't doing, if they were then our Patriarch would immediately speak up about it and Russia would turn against NK) Ukraine would still be worse than NK because they are quite literally favoring a schismatic church over the canonical church. Better to be dead than to be a heretic.

I get your point when it comes to everything else though, sorry for going too far I guess.
 
Aedra said:
If you are making a statement like this then it means you don't understand the scale of what my kind are going through in Ukraine. Even if we assumed NK hunts down Orthodox Christians (which they aren't doing, if they were then our Patriarch would immediately speak up about it and Russia would turn against NK) Ukraine would still be worse than NK because they are quite literally favoring a schismatic church over the canonical church. Better to be dead than to be a heretic.

I get your point when it comes to everything else though, sorry for going too far I guess.
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I admit to not follow at all what is happening in Ukraine and Russia, because unlike what my president and media outlets want from me, I do not care and refuse to because they're so in my face about it.
I've read a bit about the russian / greek schism, from what I got it's not full excommunication but they're definitely not in full communion either. I'll talk to "my" orthodox priest-monk and ask him more details about this when I go to the monastery this week-end. He accepted for me to stay the whole week end there for the chrismation of a friend of mine.

Also no problem, I've reacted a bit strongly too I think, it's just a subject that is very important to me, the suffering of other christians.
 
Nihilma said:
I admit to not follow at all what is happening in Ukraine and Russia, because unlike what my president and media outlets want from me, I do not care and refuse to because they're so in my face about it.
I've read a bit about the russian / greek schism, from what I got it's not full excommunication but they're definitely not in full communion either. I'll talk to "my" orthodox priest-monk and ask him more details about this when I go to the monastery this week-end. He accepted for me to stay the whole week end there for the chrismation of a friend of mine.

Also no problem, I've reacted a bit strongly too I think, it's just a subject that is very important to me, the suffering of other christians.
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Also, the organization you're citing includes Turkey in its list of countries where there's supposedly a very extreme persecution of Christians. To that I can only say : shit that never happened award. No one takes issue with Christians in Turkey. There were unpleasant events in the country's relatively recent history, but Erdoğan's government has never done anything wrong to Christians and he's been in charge for like 20+ years. He even approved building the first church in the republic's history in 2023 for the Syriac Orientals. This organization is already feeling a bit shady to me.
 
Aedra said:
Also, the organization you're citing includes Turkey in its list of countries where there's supposedly a very extreme persecution of Christians. To that I can only say : shit that never happened award. No one takes issue with Christians in Turkey. There were unpleasant events in the country's relatively recent history, but Erdoğan's government has never done anything wrong to Christians and he's been in charge for like 20+ years. He even approved building the first church in the republic's history in 2023 for the Syriac Orientals. This organization is already feeling a bit shady to me.
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I think it's mostly referring to christian converts from Islam, which is also the reason why most muslim countries are listed on this list.
it's a bit like egypt, the coptic community lives mostly fine, but ex-muslims are not fine at all.
I'll have to check though
Also, turkey is in dead last on the list, at number #50
 
Nihilma said:
I think it's mostly referring to christian converts from Islam, which is also the reason why most muslim countries are listed on this list.
it's a bit like egypt, the coptic community lives mostly fine, but ex-muslims are not fine at all.
I'll have to check though
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I'm a convert from it. Nothing happened to me. You don't need to check anything geg, I know my own country better than you for obvious reasons man.
 
Aedra said:
I'm a convert from it. Nothing happened to me. You don't need to check anything geg, I know my own country better than you for obvious reasons man.
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I meant checking the reason they gave on the website, not checking what you said mb, I believe you lol.
They say that apparently it's mostly region dependent, and that this is mostly true in inland regions and in the southeast, and that this is also mostly linked to ethnic conflicts ?
is that false too ?
 
Nihilma said:
I meant checking the reason they gave on the website, not checking what you said mb, I believe you lol.
They say that apparently it's mostly region dependent, and that this is mostly true in inland regions and in the southeast, and that this is also mostly linked to ethnic conflicts ?
is that false too ?
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There's nothing going on in the inland regions, southeast anatolia is the most conservative region with most kurds in it. In those places there would be social pressure to be Muslim of course.. But do you consider that to be "muh persecution"? Families have a right to raise their kids the way they want to. There are no legal penalties, only maybe some social pressure from parents to stay Muslim. And that's just their right, you'd want your kids to be Christian and they are entitled to the same thing. I have never heard of any ethnic conflicts being related to Christians in those regions also. So yeah I'd say it's false.
 
Aedra said:
There's nothing going on in the inland regions, southeast anatolia is the most conservative region with most kurds in it. In those places there would be social pressure to be Muslim of course.. But do you consider that to be "muh persecution"? Families have a right to raise their kids the way they want to. There are no legal penalties, only maybe some social pressure from parents to stay Muslim. And that's just their right, you'd want your kids to be Christian and they are entitled to the same thing. I have never heard of any ethnic conflicts being related to Christians in those regions also. So yeah I'd say it's false.
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No I wouldn't consider that persecussion, especially when compared to the rest of the muslim world, true.
Honestly I don't doubt that some things are exagerated, but I think they still reflect a certain reality. I'm mostly really concerned about the countries in red, and turkey being in deadlast is a good indicator to me that being christian there doesn't sound too bad.
But yeah idk about any other organization that tracks persecution in the christian world so I still do give to them
 
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